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Asbestos Knowledge Empire

Ian Stone & Neil Munro: Asbestos Experts

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Asbestos Knowledge Empire
Asbestos Knowledge Empire

Asbestos Knowledge Empire

Ian Stone & Neil Munro: Asbestos Experts

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About Us

Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire - The Property Managers Lifeline to Asbestos Management.

Join best selling authors and asbestos experts Ian Stone and Neil Munro as they educate, guide and take the complication out of asbestos management. Get the information you need to help manage your asbestos risk.

"Remember asbestos first, not last" - Neil Munro and Ian Stone

New episodes every Monday.

Latest Episodes

Robin Bennett: Neil and Ian interview founding Director of one of the leading asbestos software providers - Start Software

In this episode Neil and Ian interview Robin Bennett founding Director of Start Software. Robin provides a real insight to how asbestos software has advanced over the last 20 years and where it’s going. Robin Bennett is the founding director at Start Software and has been creating asbestos systems for 20 years. The designer of SAM, Tracker and the market-leading Alpha Tracker systems, he has worked with most of the leading asbestos consultancies in the UK, Australia & New Zealand. Start Software’s offices in Adelaide (South Australia) and Telford (West Midlands, UK) enable them to support and sell Alpha Tracker around the world to all sizes and types of organisation with an interest in asbestos. Links to your website and social media sites UK: www.start-software.com Aus/NZ: www.alpha-tracker.com.au blog: http://blog.start-software.com Twitter: @startsoftware @alpha_tracker

45 MIN2 d ago
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Robin Bennett: Neil and Ian interview founding Director of one of the leading asbestos software providers - Start Software

Do you need to label asbestos?

In this episode Neil and Ian discussed the requirements of asbestos labelling. Is it a requirement? What type of labels do you need to use?

9 MIN1 w ago
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Do you need to label asbestos?

Pointers for asbestos projects

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss what you need to look out for as a dutyholder / asbestos Project Manager / Asbestos Consultant on your asbestos removal projects.

24 MIN2 w ago
Comments
Pointers for asbestos projects

Asbestos and Grade 1 and Grade 2 listed buildings

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos in grade 1 and grade 2 listed buildings. You need to get the right surveyor with the right experience and knowledge of these buildings. Where was asbestos used in these buildings, when was it added and why?

14 MIN3 w ago
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Asbestos and Grade 1 and Grade 2 listed buildings

What does asbestos have to be encapsulated with?

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss the types of asbestos encapsulation. The commonly available encapsulation methods are: Mechanical Encapsulation High Build Elastomeric Coating Penetrating Encapsulants Water Based Epoxy Resins Transcript Ian: Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: I’m Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about asbestos and encapsulating asbestos materials, so we had a bit of a situation where one of our clients and they are looking to encapsulate some external asbestos. So asbestos insulating board soffits and the question they kind of raised was what do they have to encapsulate those materials with. So in their minds they’ve heard about the different materials and different products that run the market for encapsulating materials, so they adamantly know it have to be ET150 which is and will explain going to a bit more detail of exactly what it is. But it is a product that is common in they are used to encapsulate asbestos materials within the asbestos industry. So the external asbestos insulating boards soffits, fixated in their minds that it had to be two coats of ET150. That’s an okay material to use but it sorts of boil into question, how long would that actually last on the external of the property because it is actually not an external product, and it would face will it be on the outside, below the roof and there is gutters that’s sort of the soffits so that is going to be weathered and susceptible to a lot of rain and wind etcetera on the outside of the building. And they’ve already previously done called a lot of these encapsulating works throughout this property. Ian: What do they do? Neil: There is evidence that the ET150 that they have previously used has weathered, has starting to peel, starting to bubble. Ian: Which that doesn’t surprise me. Neil: Yeah. Ian: Because like you say like the ET150 is elastomeric sealing. It dries with like a rubberize finish so that’s kind of our go to as an industry. Neil: It is a perfect product for… Ian: Stuff inside. Neil: Yes, stuff inside, so Ian: Or in walls. Neil: Yeah, walls, asbestos insulating boards, ceiling, walls, paneling fabrics. Ian: But like you say it is not an external paint. It is not an exterior paint. Neil: No. It is perfect inside because it doesn’t get any weathering, doesn’t get any rain on it, gives it some impact protection. Doesn’t peel when it is dry. It can take a bit of vapor so in boiler rooms where there’s a bit of steam. It is okay for that. But when we are talking about wind, rain, hail, snow, temperatures constantly going up and down like freezing. Ian: Yeah. But in their mind they just heard that’s ET150 is the asbestos paint. Neil: It’s got to be that because that’s what you use for asbestos, and it’s all brought about big question is. Ian: What can you actually use? Neil: What can you actually use and do you have to use that? Ian: Okay. We got a few that we’re going to run through of different ones that you can use and can be use, and it is kind of horses for courses. It is different products are better for different things. Neil: We actually scan [unclear – 03:27] and even asbestos contractors guide as well. There is no specification. Ian: No. The only that kind of mentioned was in essentials where it talks about a non. Neil: Yeah, asbestos essential. There is a task sheet for encapsulating asbestos cement and it just said a low solvent. Ian: That’s it, low solvent, which that is kind of a standard practice anyway because... Neil: Yeah, that is a non-descript. Ian: That’s coming at it from the health and safety point of view of high solvent paints so give more dangerous to your health, more risk of being more flammable, etcetera. So yeah, there are different thing that you can use. You can use normal house paints. Start kind of the lower end of the scale. Neil: More emulsion. Ian: Yeah, bit of emulsion. Slap it on there. It will cover it. It will seal it at exactly the same way. The thi

14 MINNOV 11
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What does asbestos have to be encapsulated with?

Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE) - Explained

In this episode Neil and Ian explain the Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE). The scheme assesses the proficiency of laboratories counting asbestos fibres in air. UK laboratories are required to be accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to ISO 17025 to undertake this particular analysis as part of assessing clearance under the Control of Asbestos Regulations (CAR). Transcript Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: I’m Neil Munro. Ian: So today we are talking about RICE. Neil: Not the stuff you eat. Ian: We are talking about the Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges. That rolls a few time easy, it is not lame. So a few podcast ago we spoke about the AIMS which is the bulk analysis, the actual physical asbestos sampling analysis whereas RICE it is kind of a similar scheme but it is to check off our air analyst, our air management analyst. Again, it is an external scheme and it is run by HSE testing and monitoring again, and every so often, it’s like once a quarter I think they send out a number of actual slides. Neil: Yup. Again, these are real live ones sometimes but more often they are made up. And really it goes kind of against the day to day sort of air monitoring slides that the analyst see. Ian: A lot of the time, yeah. Neil: So it goes against, so you got heavily saturated fibers on some of the slides and sometimes it would be chrysotile fibers which are really sort of like fine and thin and hard to see, and they are on the borderline countable. Sometimes it would be sort of amphibole needle like fibers which are heavily stack in the actual slide itself which high counters. And then sometimes it would be very, very low counters where there is barely any fibers on the slides. And then sometimes I spot just a little tiny bit which is heavily populated. Ian: In one area. Neil: One area and they are the ones which fry all the counters out because when you’ve got 10 counters on and it is very subjective so the way that you count a slide it’s random sort of graticules that you’re counting, so it is kind of a bull’s eye. Ian: If you imagine a bull’s eye or a target or like on a rifle the optical that a shooter would look through, that kind of target. Neil: Yup, well those on the microscope and you move it around the slide and you just count within that target area. Ian: And it is moved around the slide in a random, not in a systematic, not the same and we’re counting 200 graticules on the slide. Neil: So you can imagine if counters, they all count differently, so you’re going to hit that random area. Ian: Some will, some won’t. Neil: Some won’t. And that sort of kind of the counter out. So they really have, once this sort of like quantify sometimes. Ian: Again, this is kind of the air management analyst kind of getting raw slides in. Neil: Yeah, because there are bogus. Ian: There ae bogus. But again they keep you on your toes, they test you. They make sure that you are doing everything properly so when you are counting an air management slide you need to zoom all the way down through all the plains on the actual slides. What I mean by that is you zoom all the way down through the sample back all the way up through the sample because the different fibers can sit at different levels within that filter and you need to make sure that… Neil: You’re counting the whole slides. Ian: Yeah, you are counting the whole slide. You are spotting all of those fibers that are on that actual filter. Yeah, and it is quite easy on some of them if you had just a quick scan over. On first impression you go, “Nah, there’s nothing on this one.” But then when you start zooming in and out of the filter you find the plain where the asbestos fiber are sitting whereas at first glance you’re going, “There is nothing on it.” And like you said the chrysotile ones are, they bsolutely bogus because they are so fine. Neil: You’ve got to find focus on those slides to make sure that you d

9 MINNOV 4
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Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE) - Explained

Asbestos Project Case Study

In this episode Neil and Ian talk through a recent asbestos project. They talk through how the client was help, what the project was, and lessons learnt. Transcript Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: And I’m Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about a bit of a case study review over how we’ve helped an individual client. We are going to sort of not mention the actual client names just for confidentiality reasons but we thought it would be a good case study to sort of give you information and what’s possible when it comes to helping clients manage their asbestos risk. Ian: I’ll set the scene there was a massive refurbishment project being undertaken at this site and… Neil: Multi million pounds. Ian: Yeah it was. It was like a few hundred million pounds overall. Neil: Yeah, and it was essentially sort of included demolishing most of the site. However, maintaining and retaining the actual structure in one section of this building. Ian: Yeah, they were kind of iconic pieces, iconic sections that needed to be kept for asbestos purposes. Ian: Yeah, it is part of the project over the years a certain amount of asbestos knowledge and information are being gathered. I mean, when we first went in… Neil: There’s different surveys as well. Wasn’t it? Lots. Ian: Yeah, different companies, different surveys. Different findings even. Neil: That was a big highlighting factor at the beginning wasn’t it? It was kind of like the client had multiple, multiple surveys, Type 2 surveys, management surveys. Ian: Type 1s even. Neil: Yeah, refurb after refurb after refurb, and when we actually sat down and look all the information, every single report had something different in it. Ian: Yeah, it did. It really did. And that’s where we started. It was like we’ve got this project coming up, alright certain bits are going to be knocked down, certain bits are going to be retained so, and that was the first port of call for us of sit down, we’ll do desktop study, so we got all the information, electronic, paper copies, everything. We kind of just laid it all out. Lock ourselves in a room for a few days and just read, literally read everything and make notes as we went of… I don’t know. Neil: Cross reference the sections. Ian: Yeah, any discrepancies of stuff that appeared with in our minds, stuff that didn’t make sense of I don’t know. But like within reports, so there were stuffs that said certain things have been removed yet the following year that area has been surveyed and the findings was it was still there. It was all just a mismatch really. So yeah, that’s what we did originally to kind of sit down and get our heads around it all before proceeding with anything. And then only when we kind of had that information had did we then kind of proceed and the next step was to do a new refurb and demo survey in line with what the client actually wanted this time around. So we didn’t discard the old information. We took that forwards. Our surveyors took it on board, they took that forwards and appreciated what the issues where on site that were known and also the stuff where there was question marks above. So what we did, we completed that survey. Again, when you compare the final survey report back to the previous stuff, some of the stuff we agreed with, of yes it had been removed and it had been removed well, other areas there was asbestos that should have been removed but it hadn’t been removed in its entirety and there was still debris and residue and stuff like that there. And then, there was also even additional findings that nobody had found before. Neil: Yeah, I think if I just interject in there. This is where we sort of lesson learned on. Now this is a massive client, it is a massive site but essentially they didn’t really have hold of the asbestos management. There were no key individual on that site managing the asbestos. Ian: There have been people over the years that had tickled it… Neil: Project teams.

23 MINOCT 28
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Asbestos Project Case Study

Asbestos In Materials Scheme (AIMS) - Explained

In this episode Neil and Ian explain the Asbestos in Materials Scheme (AIMS). AIMS assesses the performance of laboratories carrying out the identification of asbestos in bulk materials. UK laboratories are required to be accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to ISO 17025 to undertake this particular analysis as part of assessing whether materials contain asbestos under the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012. Transcript Neil: Hi! Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire, my name is Neil Munro. Ian: I’m Ian Stone. Today, we are going to be talking about AIMS. What is AIMS? What does it mean? Well, for us it’s Asbestos In Material Scheme which sounds boring as hell. Our laboratory hates it. The lab analysts absolutely hate it but it is a necessity. Neil: Yes, it is a scheme operated by the HSE testing and monitoring department who oversee these kind of management and registration of members, and it is basically Asbestos samples that are sent out to UK accredited labs to basically assess and test that to the labs who are performing to how they should be. Ian: Yeah, it is like a quality control, so our asbestos laboratory we analyze samples for clients. Clients bring them in, our surveyors bring samples in and we undertake what’s known in the industry as bulk sampling analysis. So what we do for that is we inspect the materials initially on the microscope. And we are basically looking for anything that looks like asbestos form fiber, and if we do come across fibers that look like asbestos then we melt them in refractive index liquids, that is basically a liquid that’s got a certain refractive indexy of light. And then we basically use another microscope, a polarizing light microscope and there are various steps that we go through, pulling all knobs, tweezers, buttons, etcetera. Neil: Do you know them? Ian: Not anymore. Yeah, basically we follow all these process and only when we followed that process for that fiber if it does exhibit all of those details then basically that’s at the point where we say, right, that is 100% asbestos or no it is not asbestos. And that’s what we do for all the different fiber types within any sample that we bring in or clients bring us in. Neil: And that is just why I have tested. We’re looking and we are working towards and we can actually do. Ian: Yes. It is an external kind of quality control scheme as such, so basically once a quarter, once every three months they send out four samples in lovely little foil packaged like a sample bags. And within those sample bags it can be anything. And it could be real samples so, I don’t know, could be a piece of asbestos cement or they also make up their own samples as well. Neil: More common than not. Ian: More common than not, yeah. Neil: They are really pain in the ass ones which are you never see in real life. Ian: No, and it is a funny one. Yeah, you don’t see them in real life because they’ll get like ice cube trays and they’ll pour cement in and then they’ll mix in different fiber types. It could be asbestos. It could be non-asbestos fiber type. Literally whatever they want. They throw into the sample, get a little bit of both, and essentially that could be one sample. So when it comes to us, pop it out on the bag, in the cabinet and you look at the sample and it’s a gray block of something that doesn’t look like anything that has ever come from site. And then it is our analyst’s job to break it down, break it apart into spec throughout the entire sample to find anything that is asbestos or not asbestos. And then at the end of it put their balls on the line and say, “Yes, it is asbestos and these are the fiber types I’m stating that’s in it”, or “Nope. I’ve analyzed that sample fully and there is no asbestos in there.” Neil: And sometimes it can be very, very transfibers and they are hard to identify. It is a way of checking, I don’t know, that sounds a bit like how they do that. But when you’re a bulk analyst and you

9 MINOCT 21
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Asbestos In Materials Scheme (AIMS) - Explained

Asbestos disposal: New exciting methods

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss new exciting methods relating to asbestos disposal. These new methods if adopted will help stop asbestos having to go to landfill – as spoken about by Dr Yvonne Waterman in at the Birmingham Contamination Expo – Asbestos Denaturation Chemical eradication – which leaves by products that can be re used in the building trades – asbestos cement Thermal destruction – heated to extremely high temperatures where the asbestos is totally destroyed and becomes inert Kinetic – asbestos is placed in large industrial units and heavy balls are also placed in the unit and the kinetic energy from the rotation of the unit destroys the asbestos fibre Biological – growth of fungus to eradicate asbestos More info re all of this will be at the European Asbestos Forum held in November in Holland https://www.europeanasbestosforum.org/ Transcript: Neil: Hi! Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. My name is Neil Munro. Ian: Hi! I’m Ian Stone. So today we’re talking about some exciting developments with regards to asbestos land fill. Neil: What happens to asbestos? So we went to a conference or an exhibition. Ian: It was the [unclear – 00:57] Neil: That’s the word. Ian: Yeah, in Birmingham. Neil: Lots of different people from the industry, asbestos industry flood, everyone in and around that was there. Lots of different companies sort of exhibitions sharing sort of new techniques, best practice, innovations and there are also quite a lot of seminars. Ian: Yes, so, one of them we saw Dr. Yvonne Waterman she spoke about asbestos denaturation. So at the moment asbestos goes to the landfill, so we remove it, it gets bunked up or wrapped appropriately, gets taken off to other waste transfer station or straight to landfill. Neil: Yeah, and get buried in the ground. Ian: And that’s the long short of it. Asbestos comes out of the ground, we wrapped it up, we stick it back in the ground. Neil: And this is creating not a very nice legacy that we are leaving for future generations really, all these harmful material. So we imported all asbestos that’s been used in this country, so we export it from different countries and create millions of tons of asbestos products and to this date all of it that’s been removed is going to land fill. Ian: Yes. Neil: And if you can imagine the tons and tons of these materials that of now just been buried in the ground and will continue for the future. However, there are some really exciting innovations that are coming in their infancy to market and we just want to share those. We pick this up from some experts at the conference at the exhibition and so we got to share that in this podcast today. Ian: Yeah. This is what Dr. Yvonne Waterman, I can’t remember her colleague’s name, but that’s what she spoke about. We just want to give you kind of our layman’s interpretation of what she spoke about. Neil: Yeah, it is very layman. Ian: There is going to be more information on this. Neil: Different removal techniques have been pioneered in there, so how many is it roughly? Ian: Four we’ve got. Neil: So if we start with the first one then. This was the quite exciting one for me which I highly appreciate was chemical eradication. Ian: I think this one sounds, I don’t know, sounds the most promising to me. Neil: Yeah, that and the kinetic one, and even the final one. Ian: [unclear – 03:14] Neil: This three definitely. Ian: So yeah, chemical eradication, and what she spoke about was basically putting asbestos cement products into a vat of acid, don’t know what type of acid it is. Neil: Yeah, and the additional benefits, these are byproducts from industries. So they are using the acids that are byproducts of and waste products from other industries, and using them to break down the asbestos. Ian: Yeah, and also what happens is once the asbestos is broken down that creates a byproduct of the original asbestos material so the Portland cement and the gypsum after basically what the chemical reaction

8 MINOCT 14
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Asbestos disposal: New exciting methods

Asbestos Reinspections – How often should you reinspect asbestos materials.

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos reinspection intervals. When should asbestos reinspections be undertaken, who should undertake them and what should they include. Transcript: Ian: Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: I’m Neil Munro. Ian: So today we are talking about Asbestos re-inspections. Neil: Yes, what is that asbestos re-inspection? Different from a survey. Ian: Well… Exactly that, that’s what I was going to start with. Neil: So… and usually that follow on from sort of a survey etcetera, so using base information, so you should really have an existing asbestos register. Ian: Usually that’s from a management survey. Neil: Yeah, could have survey information added to it. So it is basically taking the existing asbestos information. Ian: So you know what it is, where it is, the condition that’s in and then it is re-inspecting that so a visual check, go into the location that it’s in, and looking at the material and comparing it to what data you’ve got, what the photo previously looked like making sure there is no deterioration, there is no cracks, there is no signs of deterioration. You are checking for water leaks, all sorts of stuff. Basically anything that could affect that material in its location. Neil: And it is part of that process you’d be updating the material risk assessment. So the material risk assessment looks at how easily or how readily that asbestos material will release asbestos fiber should it be damaged. And it looks at the product type so what asbestos product it is. It looks at the condition so whether it is in a good condition or whether it is damaged. It will also look at the surface treatment so whether it is sealed, or unsealed, or it could self sealed. And It will also look at taking to account what asbestos fiber has been identified in them too. So that’s probably the most important is updating that information, that assessment because then that falls in and follows in with your priority risk assessment and then your overall risk on how you manage that material. Ian: If you are going to re-inspect and last year the asbestos insulating board ceiling was in a lovely condition. It was all painted and it was all fine. This year you have re-inspection undertaken and for some reason, I don’t know, weathering or water leak because the paint is now flaking off. Neil: Chipped it, damaged it. Ian: Yeah, exactly, anything that could affect it then that is kind of the first call of the material has changed. So the risk assessment has changed so it might go from a medium risk up into the high risk category. But also with that like you say, it is the priority risk assessment. That’s a very important one to check when you are doing the re-inspection because you could have something that’s low risk, or say medium or high risk but it is in a very low risk area. However, in the course of the last 12 months that use of that area has changed. I’ve seen that before in school halls where you got a store covered and they store hockey sticks in there, so the hockey sticks come out once a year for one week and that’s the only time they play hockey. However, in the last 12 months they’ve cleared all that out, put it somewhere else and now that is the caretaker store, and they are in there at all day every day. Or they are in there that now becomes their material store so the risk of damaging stuff when they are dragging equipment and getting it out, it’s kind of increases the risk of any asbestos being damaged in that area. Neil: Yeah. So the golden question and the question we get asked quite a lot, and it is a bit of a gray area when it comes to putting some specific down. So that is when and how often should these re-inspections be undertaken? Ian: Yeah, and from an industry standpoint it is kind of always been 12 months. Neil: Yeah, which I think is probably the benchmark. Ian: A good minimum. Neil: Yeah, the benchmark for if you are going to do something set in 12 monthl

19 MINOCT 7
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Asbestos Reinspections – How often should you reinspect asbestos materials.

Latest Episodes

Robin Bennett: Neil and Ian interview founding Director of one of the leading asbestos software providers - Start Software

In this episode Neil and Ian interview Robin Bennett founding Director of Start Software. Robin provides a real insight to how asbestos software has advanced over the last 20 years and where it’s going. Robin Bennett is the founding director at Start Software and has been creating asbestos systems for 20 years. The designer of SAM, Tracker and the market-leading Alpha Tracker systems, he has worked with most of the leading asbestos consultancies in the UK, Australia & New Zealand. Start Software’s offices in Adelaide (South Australia) and Telford (West Midlands, UK) enable them to support and sell Alpha Tracker around the world to all sizes and types of organisation with an interest in asbestos. Links to your website and social media sites UK: www.start-software.com Aus/NZ: www.alpha-tracker.com.au blog: http://blog.start-software.com Twitter: @startsoftware @alpha_tracker

45 MIN2 d ago
Comments
Robin Bennett: Neil and Ian interview founding Director of one of the leading asbestos software providers - Start Software

Do you need to label asbestos?

In this episode Neil and Ian discussed the requirements of asbestos labelling. Is it a requirement? What type of labels do you need to use?

9 MIN1 w ago
Comments
Do you need to label asbestos?

Pointers for asbestos projects

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss what you need to look out for as a dutyholder / asbestos Project Manager / Asbestos Consultant on your asbestos removal projects.

24 MIN2 w ago
Comments
Pointers for asbestos projects

Asbestos and Grade 1 and Grade 2 listed buildings

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos in grade 1 and grade 2 listed buildings. You need to get the right surveyor with the right experience and knowledge of these buildings. Where was asbestos used in these buildings, when was it added and why?

14 MIN3 w ago
Comments
Asbestos and Grade 1 and Grade 2 listed buildings

What does asbestos have to be encapsulated with?

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss the types of asbestos encapsulation. The commonly available encapsulation methods are: Mechanical Encapsulation High Build Elastomeric Coating Penetrating Encapsulants Water Based Epoxy Resins Transcript Ian: Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: I’m Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about asbestos and encapsulating asbestos materials, so we had a bit of a situation where one of our clients and they are looking to encapsulate some external asbestos. So asbestos insulating board soffits and the question they kind of raised was what do they have to encapsulate those materials with. So in their minds they’ve heard about the different materials and different products that run the market for encapsulating materials, so they adamantly know it have to be ET150 which is and will explain going to a bit more detail of exactly what it is. But it is a product that is common in they are used to encapsulate asbestos materials within the asbestos industry. So the external asbestos insulating boards soffits, fixated in their minds that it had to be two coats of ET150. That’s an okay material to use but it sorts of boil into question, how long would that actually last on the external of the property because it is actually not an external product, and it would face will it be on the outside, below the roof and there is gutters that’s sort of the soffits so that is going to be weathered and susceptible to a lot of rain and wind etcetera on the outside of the building. And they’ve already previously done called a lot of these encapsulating works throughout this property. Ian: What do they do? Neil: There is evidence that the ET150 that they have previously used has weathered, has starting to peel, starting to bubble. Ian: Which that doesn’t surprise me. Neil: Yeah. Ian: Because like you say like the ET150 is elastomeric sealing. It dries with like a rubberize finish so that’s kind of our go to as an industry. Neil: It is a perfect product for… Ian: Stuff inside. Neil: Yes, stuff inside, so Ian: Or in walls. Neil: Yeah, walls, asbestos insulating boards, ceiling, walls, paneling fabrics. Ian: But like you say it is not an external paint. It is not an exterior paint. Neil: No. It is perfect inside because it doesn’t get any weathering, doesn’t get any rain on it, gives it some impact protection. Doesn’t peel when it is dry. It can take a bit of vapor so in boiler rooms where there’s a bit of steam. It is okay for that. But when we are talking about wind, rain, hail, snow, temperatures constantly going up and down like freezing. Ian: Yeah. But in their mind they just heard that’s ET150 is the asbestos paint. Neil: It’s got to be that because that’s what you use for asbestos, and it’s all brought about big question is. Ian: What can you actually use? Neil: What can you actually use and do you have to use that? Ian: Okay. We got a few that we’re going to run through of different ones that you can use and can be use, and it is kind of horses for courses. It is different products are better for different things. Neil: We actually scan [unclear – 03:27] and even asbestos contractors guide as well. There is no specification. Ian: No. The only that kind of mentioned was in essentials where it talks about a non. Neil: Yeah, asbestos essential. There is a task sheet for encapsulating asbestos cement and it just said a low solvent. Ian: That’s it, low solvent, which that is kind of a standard practice anyway because... Neil: Yeah, that is a non-descript. Ian: That’s coming at it from the health and safety point of view of high solvent paints so give more dangerous to your health, more risk of being more flammable, etcetera. So yeah, there are different thing that you can use. You can use normal house paints. Start kind of the lower end of the scale. Neil: More emulsion. Ian: Yeah, bit of emulsion. Slap it on there. It will cover it. It will seal it at exactly the same way. The thi

14 MINNOV 11
Comments
What does asbestos have to be encapsulated with?

Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE) - Explained

In this episode Neil and Ian explain the Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE). The scheme assesses the proficiency of laboratories counting asbestos fibres in air. UK laboratories are required to be accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to ISO 17025 to undertake this particular analysis as part of assessing clearance under the Control of Asbestos Regulations (CAR). Transcript Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: I’m Neil Munro. Ian: So today we are talking about RICE. Neil: Not the stuff you eat. Ian: We are talking about the Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges. That rolls a few time easy, it is not lame. So a few podcast ago we spoke about the AIMS which is the bulk analysis, the actual physical asbestos sampling analysis whereas RICE it is kind of a similar scheme but it is to check off our air analyst, our air management analyst. Again, it is an external scheme and it is run by HSE testing and monitoring again, and every so often, it’s like once a quarter I think they send out a number of actual slides. Neil: Yup. Again, these are real live ones sometimes but more often they are made up. And really it goes kind of against the day to day sort of air monitoring slides that the analyst see. Ian: A lot of the time, yeah. Neil: So it goes against, so you got heavily saturated fibers on some of the slides and sometimes it would be chrysotile fibers which are really sort of like fine and thin and hard to see, and they are on the borderline countable. Sometimes it would be sort of amphibole needle like fibers which are heavily stack in the actual slide itself which high counters. And then sometimes it would be very, very low counters where there is barely any fibers on the slides. And then sometimes I spot just a little tiny bit which is heavily populated. Ian: In one area. Neil: One area and they are the ones which fry all the counters out because when you’ve got 10 counters on and it is very subjective so the way that you count a slide it’s random sort of graticules that you’re counting, so it is kind of a bull’s eye. Ian: If you imagine a bull’s eye or a target or like on a rifle the optical that a shooter would look through, that kind of target. Neil: Yup, well those on the microscope and you move it around the slide and you just count within that target area. Ian: And it is moved around the slide in a random, not in a systematic, not the same and we’re counting 200 graticules on the slide. Neil: So you can imagine if counters, they all count differently, so you’re going to hit that random area. Ian: Some will, some won’t. Neil: Some won’t. And that sort of kind of the counter out. So they really have, once this sort of like quantify sometimes. Ian: Again, this is kind of the air management analyst kind of getting raw slides in. Neil: Yeah, because there are bogus. Ian: There ae bogus. But again they keep you on your toes, they test you. They make sure that you are doing everything properly so when you are counting an air management slide you need to zoom all the way down through all the plains on the actual slides. What I mean by that is you zoom all the way down through the sample back all the way up through the sample because the different fibers can sit at different levels within that filter and you need to make sure that… Neil: You’re counting the whole slides. Ian: Yeah, you are counting the whole slide. You are spotting all of those fibers that are on that actual filter. Yeah, and it is quite easy on some of them if you had just a quick scan over. On first impression you go, “Nah, there’s nothing on this one.” But then when you start zooming in and out of the filter you find the plain where the asbestos fiber are sitting whereas at first glance you’re going, “There is nothing on it.” And like you said the chrysotile ones are, they bsolutely bogus because they are so fine. Neil: You’ve got to find focus on those slides to make sure that you d

9 MINNOV 4
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Regular Interlaboratory Counting Exchanges (RICE) - Explained

Asbestos Project Case Study

In this episode Neil and Ian talk through a recent asbestos project. They talk through how the client was help, what the project was, and lessons learnt. Transcript Ian: Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: And I’m Neil Munro. So today we are going to talk about a bit of a case study review over how we’ve helped an individual client. We are going to sort of not mention the actual client names just for confidentiality reasons but we thought it would be a good case study to sort of give you information and what’s possible when it comes to helping clients manage their asbestos risk. Ian: I’ll set the scene there was a massive refurbishment project being undertaken at this site and… Neil: Multi million pounds. Ian: Yeah it was. It was like a few hundred million pounds overall. Neil: Yeah, and it was essentially sort of included demolishing most of the site. However, maintaining and retaining the actual structure in one section of this building. Ian: Yeah, they were kind of iconic pieces, iconic sections that needed to be kept for asbestos purposes. Ian: Yeah, it is part of the project over the years a certain amount of asbestos knowledge and information are being gathered. I mean, when we first went in… Neil: There’s different surveys as well. Wasn’t it? Lots. Ian: Yeah, different companies, different surveys. Different findings even. Neil: That was a big highlighting factor at the beginning wasn’t it? It was kind of like the client had multiple, multiple surveys, Type 2 surveys, management surveys. Ian: Type 1s even. Neil: Yeah, refurb after refurb after refurb, and when we actually sat down and look all the information, every single report had something different in it. Ian: Yeah, it did. It really did. And that’s where we started. It was like we’ve got this project coming up, alright certain bits are going to be knocked down, certain bits are going to be retained so, and that was the first port of call for us of sit down, we’ll do desktop study, so we got all the information, electronic, paper copies, everything. We kind of just laid it all out. Lock ourselves in a room for a few days and just read, literally read everything and make notes as we went of… I don’t know. Neil: Cross reference the sections. Ian: Yeah, any discrepancies of stuff that appeared with in our minds, stuff that didn’t make sense of I don’t know. But like within reports, so there were stuffs that said certain things have been removed yet the following year that area has been surveyed and the findings was it was still there. It was all just a mismatch really. So yeah, that’s what we did originally to kind of sit down and get our heads around it all before proceeding with anything. And then only when we kind of had that information had did we then kind of proceed and the next step was to do a new refurb and demo survey in line with what the client actually wanted this time around. So we didn’t discard the old information. We took that forwards. Our surveyors took it on board, they took that forwards and appreciated what the issues where on site that were known and also the stuff where there was question marks above. So what we did, we completed that survey. Again, when you compare the final survey report back to the previous stuff, some of the stuff we agreed with, of yes it had been removed and it had been removed well, other areas there was asbestos that should have been removed but it hadn’t been removed in its entirety and there was still debris and residue and stuff like that there. And then, there was also even additional findings that nobody had found before. Neil: Yeah, I think if I just interject in there. This is where we sort of lesson learned on. Now this is a massive client, it is a massive site but essentially they didn’t really have hold of the asbestos management. There were no key individual on that site managing the asbestos. Ian: There have been people over the years that had tickled it… Neil: Project teams.

23 MINOCT 28
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Asbestos Project Case Study

Asbestos In Materials Scheme (AIMS) - Explained

In this episode Neil and Ian explain the Asbestos in Materials Scheme (AIMS). AIMS assesses the performance of laboratories carrying out the identification of asbestos in bulk materials. UK laboratories are required to be accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) to ISO 17025 to undertake this particular analysis as part of assessing whether materials contain asbestos under the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012. Transcript Neil: Hi! Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire, my name is Neil Munro. Ian: I’m Ian Stone. Today, we are going to be talking about AIMS. What is AIMS? What does it mean? Well, for us it’s Asbestos In Material Scheme which sounds boring as hell. Our laboratory hates it. The lab analysts absolutely hate it but it is a necessity. Neil: Yes, it is a scheme operated by the HSE testing and monitoring department who oversee these kind of management and registration of members, and it is basically Asbestos samples that are sent out to UK accredited labs to basically assess and test that to the labs who are performing to how they should be. Ian: Yeah, it is like a quality control, so our asbestos laboratory we analyze samples for clients. Clients bring them in, our surveyors bring samples in and we undertake what’s known in the industry as bulk sampling analysis. So what we do for that is we inspect the materials initially on the microscope. And we are basically looking for anything that looks like asbestos form fiber, and if we do come across fibers that look like asbestos then we melt them in refractive index liquids, that is basically a liquid that’s got a certain refractive indexy of light. And then we basically use another microscope, a polarizing light microscope and there are various steps that we go through, pulling all knobs, tweezers, buttons, etcetera. Neil: Do you know them? Ian: Not anymore. Yeah, basically we follow all these process and only when we followed that process for that fiber if it does exhibit all of those details then basically that’s at the point where we say, right, that is 100% asbestos or no it is not asbestos. And that’s what we do for all the different fiber types within any sample that we bring in or clients bring us in. Neil: And that is just why I have tested. We’re looking and we are working towards and we can actually do. Ian: Yes. It is an external kind of quality control scheme as such, so basically once a quarter, once every three months they send out four samples in lovely little foil packaged like a sample bags. And within those sample bags it can be anything. And it could be real samples so, I don’t know, could be a piece of asbestos cement or they also make up their own samples as well. Neil: More common than not. Ian: More common than not, yeah. Neil: They are really pain in the ass ones which are you never see in real life. Ian: No, and it is a funny one. Yeah, you don’t see them in real life because they’ll get like ice cube trays and they’ll pour cement in and then they’ll mix in different fiber types. It could be asbestos. It could be non-asbestos fiber type. Literally whatever they want. They throw into the sample, get a little bit of both, and essentially that could be one sample. So when it comes to us, pop it out on the bag, in the cabinet and you look at the sample and it’s a gray block of something that doesn’t look like anything that has ever come from site. And then it is our analyst’s job to break it down, break it apart into spec throughout the entire sample to find anything that is asbestos or not asbestos. And then at the end of it put their balls on the line and say, “Yes, it is asbestos and these are the fiber types I’m stating that’s in it”, or “Nope. I’ve analyzed that sample fully and there is no asbestos in there.” Neil: And sometimes it can be very, very transfibers and they are hard to identify. It is a way of checking, I don’t know, that sounds a bit like how they do that. But when you’re a bulk analyst and you

9 MINOCT 21
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Asbestos In Materials Scheme (AIMS) - Explained

Asbestos disposal: New exciting methods

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss new exciting methods relating to asbestos disposal. These new methods if adopted will help stop asbestos having to go to landfill – as spoken about by Dr Yvonne Waterman in at the Birmingham Contamination Expo – Asbestos Denaturation Chemical eradication – which leaves by products that can be re used in the building trades – asbestos cement Thermal destruction – heated to extremely high temperatures where the asbestos is totally destroyed and becomes inert Kinetic – asbestos is placed in large industrial units and heavy balls are also placed in the unit and the kinetic energy from the rotation of the unit destroys the asbestos fibre Biological – growth of fungus to eradicate asbestos More info re all of this will be at the European Asbestos Forum held in November in Holland https://www.europeanasbestosforum.org/ Transcript: Neil: Hi! Welcome to Asbestos Knowledge Empire. My name is Neil Munro. Ian: Hi! I’m Ian Stone. So today we’re talking about some exciting developments with regards to asbestos land fill. Neil: What happens to asbestos? So we went to a conference or an exhibition. Ian: It was the [unclear – 00:57] Neil: That’s the word. Ian: Yeah, in Birmingham. Neil: Lots of different people from the industry, asbestos industry flood, everyone in and around that was there. Lots of different companies sort of exhibitions sharing sort of new techniques, best practice, innovations and there are also quite a lot of seminars. Ian: Yes, so, one of them we saw Dr. Yvonne Waterman she spoke about asbestos denaturation. So at the moment asbestos goes to the landfill, so we remove it, it gets bunked up or wrapped appropriately, gets taken off to other waste transfer station or straight to landfill. Neil: Yeah, and get buried in the ground. Ian: And that’s the long short of it. Asbestos comes out of the ground, we wrapped it up, we stick it back in the ground. Neil: And this is creating not a very nice legacy that we are leaving for future generations really, all these harmful material. So we imported all asbestos that’s been used in this country, so we export it from different countries and create millions of tons of asbestos products and to this date all of it that’s been removed is going to land fill. Ian: Yes. Neil: And if you can imagine the tons and tons of these materials that of now just been buried in the ground and will continue for the future. However, there are some really exciting innovations that are coming in their infancy to market and we just want to share those. We pick this up from some experts at the conference at the exhibition and so we got to share that in this podcast today. Ian: Yeah. This is what Dr. Yvonne Waterman, I can’t remember her colleague’s name, but that’s what she spoke about. We just want to give you kind of our layman’s interpretation of what she spoke about. Neil: Yeah, it is very layman. Ian: There is going to be more information on this. Neil: Different removal techniques have been pioneered in there, so how many is it roughly? Ian: Four we’ve got. Neil: So if we start with the first one then. This was the quite exciting one for me which I highly appreciate was chemical eradication. Ian: I think this one sounds, I don’t know, sounds the most promising to me. Neil: Yeah, that and the kinetic one, and even the final one. Ian: [unclear – 03:14] Neil: This three definitely. Ian: So yeah, chemical eradication, and what she spoke about was basically putting asbestos cement products into a vat of acid, don’t know what type of acid it is. Neil: Yeah, and the additional benefits, these are byproducts from industries. So they are using the acids that are byproducts of and waste products from other industries, and using them to break down the asbestos. Ian: Yeah, and also what happens is once the asbestos is broken down that creates a byproduct of the original asbestos material so the Portland cement and the gypsum after basically what the chemical reaction

8 MINOCT 14
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Asbestos disposal: New exciting methods

Asbestos Reinspections – How often should you reinspect asbestos materials.

In this episode Neil and Ian discuss asbestos reinspection intervals. When should asbestos reinspections be undertaken, who should undertake them and what should they include. Transcript: Ian: Welcome to the Asbestos Knowledge Empire. I’m Ian Stone. Neil: I’m Neil Munro. Ian: So today we are talking about Asbestos re-inspections. Neil: Yes, what is that asbestos re-inspection? Different from a survey. Ian: Well… Exactly that, that’s what I was going to start with. Neil: So… and usually that follow on from sort of a survey etcetera, so using base information, so you should really have an existing asbestos register. Ian: Usually that’s from a management survey. Neil: Yeah, could have survey information added to it. So it is basically taking the existing asbestos information. Ian: So you know what it is, where it is, the condition that’s in and then it is re-inspecting that so a visual check, go into the location that it’s in, and looking at the material and comparing it to what data you’ve got, what the photo previously looked like making sure there is no deterioration, there is no cracks, there is no signs of deterioration. You are checking for water leaks, all sorts of stuff. Basically anything that could affect that material in its location. Neil: And it is part of that process you’d be updating the material risk assessment. So the material risk assessment looks at how easily or how readily that asbestos material will release asbestos fiber should it be damaged. And it looks at the product type so what asbestos product it is. It looks at the condition so whether it is in a good condition or whether it is damaged. It will also look at the surface treatment so whether it is sealed, or unsealed, or it could self sealed. And It will also look at taking to account what asbestos fiber has been identified in them too. So that’s probably the most important is updating that information, that assessment because then that falls in and follows in with your priority risk assessment and then your overall risk on how you manage that material. Ian: If you are going to re-inspect and last year the asbestos insulating board ceiling was in a lovely condition. It was all painted and it was all fine. This year you have re-inspection undertaken and for some reason, I don’t know, weathering or water leak because the paint is now flaking off. Neil: Chipped it, damaged it. Ian: Yeah, exactly, anything that could affect it then that is kind of the first call of the material has changed. So the risk assessment has changed so it might go from a medium risk up into the high risk category. But also with that like you say, it is the priority risk assessment. That’s a very important one to check when you are doing the re-inspection because you could have something that’s low risk, or say medium or high risk but it is in a very low risk area. However, in the course of the last 12 months that use of that area has changed. I’ve seen that before in school halls where you got a store covered and they store hockey sticks in there, so the hockey sticks come out once a year for one week and that’s the only time they play hockey. However, in the last 12 months they’ve cleared all that out, put it somewhere else and now that is the caretaker store, and they are in there at all day every day. Or they are in there that now becomes their material store so the risk of damaging stuff when they are dragging equipment and getting it out, it’s kind of increases the risk of any asbestos being damaged in that area. Neil: Yeah. So the golden question and the question we get asked quite a lot, and it is a bit of a gray area when it comes to putting some specific down. So that is when and how often should these re-inspections be undertaken? Ian: Yeah, and from an industry standpoint it is kind of always been 12 months. Neil: Yeah, which I think is probably the benchmark. Ian: A good minimum. Neil: Yeah, the benchmark for if you are going to do something set in 12 monthl

19 MINOCT 7
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Asbestos Reinspections – How often should you reinspect asbestos materials.
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