“Everyone was all for inclusion. There wasn't anybody who felt that this movement for inclusion was anything but good. But there were a lot of worries that in our focus on inclusion that we’ve turned away from thinking about the teaching of analysis per se - of what goes on with the analyst and the patient, teaching how we work with people, how we think about people. Countertransference can get lost in this way. Even though there is a focus on the countertransference in terms of discrimination, but that is just one factor. So, there was a lot of concern that we could lose interest in development and interest in intrapsychic life." Episode Description: We begin by referring to Judy's first podcast (#83) where she reported on her interviews with former analysands about the nature of their termination experience. She has continued to rely on personal conversations to learn about the inner life of individuals in her current project of interviewing analysts over age 70 about their life...