In this extended conversation Robert A.F. Thurman and Dr. Mark Epstein M.D. discuss the history of scientific studies on the effects of meditation training since Buddhism’s migration to the West and encounter with materialists, psychotherapists and poets. Settling down after their annual Buddhism and Psychotherapy gathering, Bob Thurman and Mark Epstein reflect upon their twenty plus years teaching together, the on-going dialog between mental health care-givers and Buddhist Psychonauts, highlighting the teachers and teachings which impacted their work, writing and personal journeys. Candidly sharing details about his next book, Mark describes his academic career, the untold stories behind his groundbreaking writings, and shows how his lifelong combination of concentrated meditation practice with clinical psychological practice and study have earned him his eminent place on the front lines of the mindfulness revolution. This episode includes: an exploration of the influence of the h...