5. The Art of Listening

If some guy came up to you and said, look,I got $30 million in a cave somewhere. I've got five minutes to live. Can'twrite it down. We don't have any recording equipment. So I'm going to tell youthis one time and this one time only how to get. To the treasure. Now, how muchconcentration do you think you would have on that information?

[00:00:36] You need to listen to yourpartner with that same sense of detail and passion. And if you're listen, likethey're trying to send you to a million dollar treasure, you will in fact findthat million dollar treasure. Because good love over a long period of time is amillion dollars worth a happy, I believe that.

[00:01:01] Hi, I'm judge Lynn Toler. Andwelcome to that conversation. The pod course in which I help you learn to talkto the person that you're in love with today's episode is going to be calledthe art of listening. You know, I spent 13 years on the bench on divorce courtand we flew couples in from all over the country and it was such an educationallecture.

[00:01:26] Experience and one of the mosteducational parts about it was the times I would sit back and simply allow whatmost judges would never permit, which is for the two litigants to talk to oneanother crosstalk shit check. Do you want to know why I did that? I did that.So I could understand what was going wrong in their house.

[00:01:53] 90% of the time, no matter whatthe problem was at home, it was either caused by or exacerbated by theinability to communicate effectively. When I would sit there and watch thosecouples, you could tell. What one was saying and what the other one was hearingand rarely was that the case can't have effective communication, unless you'rean effective listener, because if you're not an effective listener, you won'thear what you're being told.

[00:02:24] Oh, you'll hear the words. Youmight hear the fears. You might hear the problems, but you don't hear what isexactly is being said. Listening is a skill. It's an art. And that's what we'regoing to talk about today. Um, I'll start with a story.

[00:02:46] this story is about a woman andI tell you I can still see her in my mind's eye. She had on a white shirt witha pencil black skirt. And she was all sweet and all smile. She came out there,opened her mouth and I'm telling you the words left there, like a freighttrain. She started with the thought of the day and went rumbling past everycomplaint, problem, issue, or drama that she had ever had with the man that shewas with.

[00:03:15] And by the time she was over, wewere all exhausted. Joe was tired. Her husband was tired. I was tired. Shetalked about everything all the time, but she didn't know what she was talkingabout. She never addressed the problem that she had with the man, because shedidn't understand what the man's problem was because she spent all of her timetalking and not listening.

[00:03:39] Effective communication is notabout how many words that you can land on other people. It's not about how wellyou can get your point of view across. If in fact, your point of view does notrelate to, or have any basis in the facts of what the other person feels andneeds. You're just saying, expressing yourself, you are not making yourselfunderstood to make yourself understood.

[00:04:05] You have to listen. Andlistening is hard. A lot of people confuse hearing and listening hearing iswhat happens when the words hit your eardrum. Listening is what you do withthose words. Once they hit your brain, do you let them make you angry? DIA, letthem side track it. Do you not pay attention to him?

[00:04:29] What do you do with those words?Once they hit your brain? Not only is listening hard, listening inside arelationship, a romantic relationship when you were in love with someone isjust that much harder. Number one, cause you make assumptions that that personknows you well and loves you. And therefore should understand you, even ifyou're not making yourself clear, that is not true.

[00:05:00] I had another young lady in mycourtroom demonstrate another thing that was not true about listening. She saidher man never listened to her. And then I asked her, well, tell him right now,one of the things that you want him to hear. And so she explained it to you andit was rather rational. So I looked at him and I said, well, I understood whatshe said.

[00:05:30] Did you understand what shesays? He said, yeah, I did. But she don't talk like that when we're home. Shetalked like that because you're here and that she's in public, but at home, sheis all crunk with it, crank with it and comes at me like a ton of bricks. Uh,turned around. I looked at her and I said, is that true?

[00:05:51] And she said, The one thing Iknow is problem. Number 17, a in communication in relationships, she says,well, of course I'm not as, I don't know, put together, she didn't say that,but that's what she meant as course, I will not like this at home when I'm athome, I'm at home. And I feel like I have the right to let it rip to let himfeel what I feel just the way I feel it.

[00:06:21] And I said, As dr. Phil oftendoes. How's that working for you? I was met with silence. You were listening tothat conversation, a Himalaya learning audio course, be sure to check out allof the other awesome exclusive content in the Himalaya app or on it. mla.com.

[00:06:49] Another difficulty we run intohome when we are trying to listen is that we live in a day and age where. Wereceive and elicit so much information so quickly, so rapidly. We have veryshort attention spans. We got the phones in our hands. We got the iPod on, wegot our streaming services. We got social media where we share our wants andour feelings.

[00:07:17] And we have all of theseemotions that we have set into motion with technology that allows us to relay itat lightning speed. So. We're not used to that old slow plotting. We got itwalked through the weeds of these, these conversation in these needs in a slow,methodical fashion, because that's not the speed at which we live life thesedays.

[00:07:45] All of those things have to betaken into consideration when you start the listening process at home and last,but certainly by no means, least we have to address the heightened emotionalitythat we get at home. When your significant other talks to you, it really goesinto your soul. If the guy at the grocery store doesn't understand who you areor talks to you as if you are just another jerk on the street, which when youthink about it, that's all you are to them.

[00:08:19] But when the person at home, theperson that loves you supposed to know you, it says something hurtful. It goesstraight to your sense of self, your center and your self-esteem, and it makesthat much more difficult. To put away your emotions long enough to understandwhat you're being told. What we're going to do in this episode of thatconversation is help you through that conversational, mindful.

[00:08:51] No, no. There are a lot ofdifferent kinds of conversations that you have with the person that you're inlove with. You have these meaningless. Ones that are just logistical. You havethe chit chat and the, and the fun and the telling about the days. But whatwe're talking about here, when you truly have to use your listening skills, arethose complicated or difficult conversations that you have to have, and you allknow what I'm talking about, jealousies and securities.

[00:09:16] If you, if you're upset aboutmoney or time, or if you feel that you're not being cared for or loved in theway that you want to be. Or something that they're doing that you don't like orsomething that you'd wished that they would do what they're not doing. Thoseare the complicated conversations that require listening to become a skill.

[00:09:36] The first thing I wouldrecommend that you do in order to allow your conversations to become thevaluable exchange of information that you need is to set up before you have tosit down. What I mean by that is this. If you are in a romantic relationshipwith somebody, whether you're living together or living apart, you should havea place.

[00:10:00] You should have a way you shouldhave a process in place to have those difficult conversations. Just forinstance, there's a place in my crib where I'll sit right next to my husband,put my hand on his leg and he knows we're about to have a conversation that maynot go. That may not be about a delightful subject, but the reason that I haveall of those things in place is that that sets his mind.

[00:10:33] Right? If you have rules abouthow to have hard conversations, look. Baby when we have another conversationlike this, when we look like we're about to have an argument, let's sit downover here. I'll put my hand on your shoulder. I'll put you we'll we'll holdhands and there'll be rules to this part of the conversation.

[00:10:53] We know what's going to bedifficult. We're going to try to set aside our emotions and we're going to tryto put each other. In the, in the bright light of the best conversation that wecan have, we won't interrupt. We will try not to raise our voices. We won'tcall names and we won't curse. Oh, of course, then didn't always work out.

[00:11:16] But if you have that as yourgoal, and if you have a place where you sit that implicates, all of thoserules, that's like church, where you go into church, you know, to be quiet, youain't cussing and carrying on it. Hooping an Island, same thing. Set yourselfup for a successful difficult conversation. Next thing you gotta do is set thetable once you're there.

[00:11:45] Now, this is how you set thetable for a good talk. First thing you do when you go into that space in yourhome, or if you don't have a space in that home and you sit down and you'regetting ready to do it, make a point, turn that television off, put that phonedown. I don't want those controllers anywhere near you.

[00:12:01] You have to excuse the rest ofthe world from being any part of this conversation. You cannot be distracted.You cannot be other focused. You have to be there. In mind, body and spirit.The second thing you have to do to make sure that we have a good talk isremember that we don't simply convey information through words.

[00:12:27] We've got body language. We'vegot tone. We've got touch. We've got smiles. Frowns sad expressions with oureyes. Make sure that all of the things that you communicate with your body,your tone, your words, everything are on board with you. So this conversationcan not only. Convey good words, but convey good feelings.

[00:12:53] And if you put the other personat ease, make them comfortable and make them know that you're interested ineverything. They have to say. It brings down the level of angst that they enterinto the relationship with when their ranks goes down, your ranks goes down.When they get cooler, you get cooler and it allows for more to get said beforeanyone gets upset.

[00:13:19] The next thing you have to do isremember who you are. I'm going to have a couple of examples for this. Thefirst one is I was in divorce court. One day, there was a woman and a manthere, the husband had to be at least six foot five, 300 and some pounds. Andhe had a deep voice, like a Barry white. I was going to say Barry Williams, butthat's the guy on the Brady bunch.

[00:13:41] I used to love that show. Butanyway, that's neither here nor there. He would be saying something verybenign, but his imposing presence made it sound like he was coming for you. AndI pointed that out to him and his response to me was, yeah, but I love amurder. She knows that she knows what it is. And I said, you know what?

[00:14:04] You scared me and I'm here. I'ma judge on a bench, in a room full of people. I got a man standing next to me,got a gun on his hip and it still rattled me a bit. The way you came acrosslove, not withstanding if a person perceives aggression. Their cortisol level,their adrenaline levels. They will all go up and they will respond as if theyare under siege.

[00:14:33] You should know how big you are.You should know how imposing you are, and you should make an effort to bringthat down in order to. Contribute to the conversation in a way that doesn'tstartle your woman. And I'm not saying don't be who you are. Don't be a dude,but just remember how you come across.

[00:14:52] Like if an old lady was in aroom, you'd come across differently than one of your male friends were in theroom. If a little kid was in the room, you would do it differently. This is thelove of your life. This is the woman that you with. Why wouldn't you try tocome across to her in a manner that she finds easy to absorb?

[00:15:11] Because if she's in a placewhere she can absorb what you're saying, she will be better able to understandwhat you want. Not enough story. This story is from my personal life. I can bea very loud and passionate individual. I can be very impatient and you can hearthat passion and impatience in my voice.

[00:15:36] I used to approach myconversations with my husband with a level of, um, Lawyerly lunging, you know,cause lawyers, we lunch, we were hired guns. I was a litigator. I used to go incourt and argue my case and defend corporations or Sue people. And I cameacross when I was making a point, like I was a solicitor and I had to learnover the years, like, wait a minute.

[00:16:02] Even though these are my bestoratory skills, even though this is what I use to make the rest of the world.Understand me. This is not the appropriate, conversational tone and method tohave with my man. I needed to show him that I wasn't trying to beat him. I wasjust trying to understand him. So again, remember who you are and how you comeacross and make sure you adjust that.

[00:16:30] So you can do it in the bestway, way possible.

[00:16:37] Now that we have set thelistening tables, let's talk a little bit about active listening rules.Listening, as I have said before is not hearing it is about receivinginformation and understanding that information. There's one very, very commonthing that a lot of people do when they contend they are listening, but in factare only hearing and I call it conversational.

[00:17:04] Our robot dope. You rememberMuhammad Ali? If he was fighting a big dude and he wanted to wear that cat outwithout having to expend any of his own energy, he would lean up against thatrope, put his arms up in front of him and let the other person wear themselvesout. Some people engaged in conversational rope, a dope.

[00:17:25] In other words, they're justquiet while the other person is, is speaking. They don't interrupt and theythink they're doing something simply by not interrupting. They are admittedly.If you're interrupting people, you're not paying attention. If you'reinterrupting people, that means you were. Trying to figure out what you'resaying.

[00:17:44] I want to say in response whilethat person is still talking. So clearly you can't hear and listen andunderstand what they said. So a lot of people have taken the tact of, well, I'msimply not going to talk while the other person is talking. And that will showthat I am listening. It does not. If you're just quiet and you're not.

[00:18:03] Actively paying attention towhat they're saying and trying to figure out exactly what they mean by whatthey're saying. You're playing conversational rope a dope, and it doesn't help.You should be listening to your woman or man's conversation in a manner thatwould allow you to follow a path or a map to treasure.

[00:18:26] This is what I mean. If some guycame up to you and said, look, I got $30 million in a cave somewhere. I've gotfive minutes to live. Can't write it down. We don't have any recordingequipment. So I'm going to tell you this one time and this one time only how toget. To the treasure. Now, how much concentration do you think you would haveon that information you would be listening?

[00:18:59] You would be trying to remember.You would be putting pictures in your brain in order to keep that informationin there in a way that you can call it up. You need to listen to your partnerwith that same sense of detail and passion. How want to know where she's tryingto get me to go. I want to know what he's trying to get me to understand, andif you're listen, like they're trying to send you to a million dollar treasure,you will in fact find that million dollar treasure because good love over along period of time is a million dollars worth, a happy.

[00:19:37] I believe that the next act oflistening rule I have for you is to ensure that you do understand what you'rereceiving. Bye. Taking in what they said, stopping them for a second. Say, letme make sure I understand this does two things. Number one, it allows you torepeat what they said, and if you repeat what they said in your own words, too,you just can't.

[00:20:04] Repeat their words, word forword. You have to show that you understand it by being able to repeat it inyour own words, that will allow you to show them that, Hey, this individual isreally listening and if you got it right, their temperature, yet again will godown because you, they will feel like, huh, this person is receiving me.

[00:20:25] He's understanding me. She'sunderstanding what I want to say. And she's really caring about what I'mtalking about. And two, it will keep them from repeating themselves. I foundthis out on the criminal bench. If you talk to somebody and they don't thinkyou understand what they said, they'll cook.

[00:20:47] They'll keep repeating itbecause people are people say and do things because they really believe itmakes sense. And they can't be convinced that they don't make sense by whateverargument you have, if they don't believe you understand their argument. So ifyou never acknowledged that you understood what they were saying, they'll keeprepeating it.

[00:21:09] Because clearly if I waslistening, I would agree because it made sense to them. So in order to keepthose things working for you. Listen, receive and repeat what you heard in yourown words and the last little bonus that gives you in the off chance. And it'snot often that off of a chance sometimes it's how it goes regularly.

[00:21:34] You may have gotten it wrong fromthe jump. Do you really know how many conversations I have had with my husband,where we spent a half hour fussing about something and neither one of us was onthe same topic. What a waste of time had we managed to sit down, listen andrepeat what we heard. We would have found out we weren't on the same page andwe could have started all over again.

[00:22:00] The third rule for activelistening need to dig into what people are saying. It's not enough to simplyrepeat what they've said to you in your own words, but it's also important tolet them know that you care about how they feel. Often people will tell youthings and they're really don't get to what they're supposed to be talkingabout.

[00:22:23] I had this young lady, she cameinto the courtroom. She kept talking about. All of the things that he says toof the women that she found insulting, and none of them were, but that's whatshe was hearing. And she was saying that as if that was her problem, but uponinquiry, which is what I did in divorce court as to why she felt thesestatements were inappropriate.

[00:22:50] I found out that she felt thathe paid more attention to other women than herself. She didn't say it. Butthat's what she meant. If you ask questions open-ended ones. Well, how did youget there or what did you mean by that? Well, give me a few examples of, uh, ofwhat you're talking about and how that made you feel that shows activelistening.

[00:23:14] It allows you to dig into whatthey're telling you. So maybe you both have a better idea about what you aretrying to convey. The second point that does is again, demonstrate to theperson to whom you're speaking, which let's keep in mind is the person youlove. That you're interested at how they feel and what they need and what they want.

[00:23:38] Again, that establishes a soundfoundation for a conversation that will lead to dedication between the two ofyou own and on going basis. Rule number four for active listening. Make yourinquiries sound like inquiries. Don't just, well, what are you talking about?Well, what do you mean? I didn't say that you're not right.

[00:24:00] Well, wait a minute. Don't beloud and pushy. Don't if they give you seven examples of something and onlyfour of them improve, don't concentrate on the three that aren't true. It'slike, well, that one didn't happen. That one didn't happen. Ask them why theyfeel that all of those. Those things are examples of something that you didwrong or you failed to do or things that are just upsetting.

[00:24:20] You don't be accusational. Don'tbe critical. Don't be looking for where they're wrong. And that's what happensin so many conversations, especially complicated ones. I recall one time I was,um, I am the co-host of a show called marriage bootcamp on we TV and marriagebootcamp. Is a place where we bring in married couples and dating couples andwho are having complications.

[00:24:43] And we try to help them work itout. I would watch them for 10 hours a day. From screens behind the scenes,just so I could watch them for patterns about how they speak, how they conveyinformation to one another, how they deal with one another. So I could, at theend of the day, give them some positive and informational feedback about whatthey're doing wrong.

[00:25:09] I watched this one, couple, theywere from a black ink crew. Great couple whenever they had an argument. Whatwould happen is she would state her position. And if it did implicate somethingthat he did wrong, he would shift the subject. Something close to what they weretalking about, but not exactly what they were talking about because at no pointdid he want to sign on for him having sinned at all?

[00:25:42] So she wouldn't catch him, buthe was what I called a subject shifter that any time, some, some behavior implicatedwrongdoing on his part, he would move the subject over and move the subjectover until he finally moved the subject on some sense she committed and then hewould say, okay, And there it is.

[00:26:02] That's our problem. He was asubject shifter and a sin chaser. Don't be that kind of person who's trying todiminish what somebody else is saying, because you feel distress. What you needto do is allow. What's being said to be said, understand it. And then when youhave an opportunity reply, but make sure that you get the underlying point madeas opposed to feeling good about the point in the moment that it's made.

[00:26:36] The last rule that I have foractive listening is, do not answer the dog whistle of insult. Now. Our bodiesare set up the way that they're set up and our bodies do a whole lot to keep ussafe from harm. Our bodies also take on insult criticism or critiques as harm abrain season attack. Our brain sees that we are being subjected to somenegative information.

[00:27:13] And what it does is it sends outall these hormones to deal with a fight. So whenever somebody says something toyou, legitimate or no, that implicates something, you may or may not have donewrong. Your body chemistry is gone to start working against you, because it'sgonna want to put you in a place to fight.

[00:27:35] In order to avoid getting caughtup by the dog whistle of a negative comment you avoid the three days criticismmakes you feel I feel threatened. And as I said, the body releases the verysame chemicals that it would if a lion jumped out at you. But remember. Yourwoman or your man's words are not claws.

[00:28:00] They're not teeth they'reinformation. It may be correct. It may be incorrect, but if you respond with anemotional response design to fight a tiger, you will not allow yourself toengage in a conversation that have allowed the two of you to resolve yourissues. The second thing that you might do in order to, uh, answer the dogwhistle of insult is to deflect.

[00:28:26] In other words, up. I know whatshe's saying, but that does not apply to me. You're going to bat away the wordsbecause they're not ones you want to hear. And so you just say she doesn'tunderstand he's got it wrong. They don't understand me, therefore, anythingthey said after, uh, the insult. I don't want to hear the interesting thing isthat even if they're wrong about why you did something or what you did, it's.

[00:28:55] Imperative that you understandthat that's how they feel, because it may be a matter of getting them tounderstand what your true motives our efforts are, as opposed to simply sayingyou're wrong. If you can get them to your true motives. Then they may not beinsulted or upset or distressed by something that you're doing.

[00:29:19] That's not designed to do that.So don't deflect, even if the information is incorrect, try to understand howthey got to the opinion that they have. And here is the last of the three daysfor the dog whistle of insult. I've met a lot of people, typically women, I trynot to be too gender focused, but you know, men and women think differently.

[00:29:44] They just, they, they, theyreally, really do, but I I've met a cadre of women who deflate. When they arecriticized that. Uh, and I don't know if it's societal or, or, or I desire toplease people. I don't know if it's been, what's been asked of us for so long,but any criticism from their man is taken on and makes you feel smaller andsmaller and smaller.

[00:30:13] This often happens when they arewith a person who. Picks that them for a living, and this is not a solely malething that they do. There are women out there who just are constant non-stopdart throwers in their man's ego, just because they can't get everything thatthey want. So don't take on criticism and make you feel small.

[00:30:38] Just say it may be correct. Itmay not be correct, but I'm going to listen to figure out why, what, so we canhave a conversation where both of us are satisfied about what we hear, what wedo and what we feel. Um,

[00:31:03] now we've talked about all ofthe things, not all of the things, but some of the major things that you haveto do in order to be a good listener. Another thing you have to do in order tohave a great conversation is encourage your partner to be a good listener as well.They may not listen to this podcast.

[00:31:21] So, what do you do if you aretrying to listen? Well, and you're there, isn't on board with you. Sometimeswhat you have to do is cool them out and calm them down from the verybeginning, so they can actively and effectively listen to what you have to saywhen it becomes your term. I have found that when you approach them with thecomment or with the understanding that.

[00:31:49] I am looking to listen to you. Iam looking to receive the information that you give me. It gives them a momentto say, Hey, this person is not the problem that I have. It's what they'redoing. That's the problem. And that I don't have to come out all mad and angrythat this person, if I remain calm, will listen to what I have to say.

[00:32:13] And if a person starts to sparkup during their conversation with you, Could you, you can put out your hand andtouch him and say, you know, I'm trying to hear everything you say. I'm tryingto meet the issues where they live, but I can't keep up with you. Can we talkone at a time? I'll be more likely to be able to address what you need.

[00:32:35] If you can give it to me in away that helps me understand and just doesn't start, start CAS and startbusiness. The second thing you can do to help other people listen, is to limitthe topic off top. If you're in a romantic relationship, you probably haveissues on a whole bunch of different levels. And one thing implicates, anotherthing that implicates what you did last Saturday, which implicates what you did10 months ago, all kinds of things.

[00:33:02] It may even implicate something.Some other dude or woman had done from you a long time ago, but you don'treally understand. Stan, a lot of people get into conversations and they justkind of flood the other person with all the difficulties and the problems thatthey have on a whole lot of different levels.

[00:33:18] And all you do is end upconveying a whole lot of dismay, but no information. If you want to help theother person listen, well, suggest limiting the topic. Off top. In other words,I know we got a lot going on, but you want to talk to me about a, let's makesure we stay on a, you write down on a piece of paper.

[00:33:40] So all of you can refocus on a,if a starts to fade in, in the shadow of all the other stuff, that's goingwrong in your relationship. So. If you make that request up front, get them tosign on. And when they start to diverge or, or descend, you can bring themback. Remember, we're talking about this now I'm willing to talk about the restlater, but right now I want to hear what you got to say about a.

[00:34:09] It leads me to the third thingthat you can do. Sometimes it pays to have a piece of paper and write it down.If you've got a shovel, a subject shifter or a, or a, uh, send chaser.Sometimes if you could just write down what's going on. So one, you resist theurge to interrupt and correct, because you know, you won't forget the pointcause you have it there.

[00:34:32] And then if you write downeverything you said, the other person can see what, Hey. Not only did I talkabout topic a, I talked about BC, D E F and G, and got almost to Z and neverresolved the thing. Sometimes putting things in the way that people can seethemselves without having to critique them, allows them to see what they'redoing wrong.

[00:35:00] I cannot tell you how many timesI have told litigants on divorce court, please. When this show airs, tape itand watch it over and over and over again. See the way that you'recommunicating. See how many topics you covered. See how anxious and angry yougot. See what names you called and what things you did.

[00:35:23] People don't see themselves. Andthat opportunity to do so is always enlightening. So you can write stuff downand, and warn them first. They'll say, Hey, I'm going to write these thingsdown. So I can make sure I address everything you want to address and show itto them as a tool, as opposed to. Like you writing an opposing briefing orgoing to, to fight them in court.

[00:35:51] You don't want that to happen,ladies and gentlemen, those are some of the things that help you have aconversation that is worth its weight in gold. The art of listening, it is socritical. It is so crucial. I will continue to talk about it as this pod coursecontinues. But these are the base things that I would love for you to be intouch with, to be in tune with, in order to assist you your homework.

[00:36:18] As you know, I always havehomework is to start a conversation in a different way. Just give it a try. Soyou can kick off a conversation in a new way. You know what they say? Thedefinition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expect adifferent result. Just pick something and try it, see what happens and tellthem why you're trying it.

[00:36:42] Because you'll want tounderstand your want to know you want to have effective communication. Sothat's it for this week next week, we're going to talk specific quickly aboutdifferent types of difficult situations and difficult conversations that youhave to have. So we can suggest some ways to step into some, um, land that ismany minefields in it and avoid them.

[00:37:09] I hope to be able to address afew of the issues that you found you fallen into in your life, but to make surethat I can address those issues, why don't you join me on that conversationscommunity on himalaya.com. Please ask me some questions, talk about what youwant to know, or some difficulties that you're running into.

[00:37:31] So you and I could possibly discussthem on a later episode of that conversation until next time listen up. Andlisten. Well, thank you for listening to episode five of that conversation, aHimalayan learning audio course, be sure to check out all of the other awesomeexclusive content in the Himalaya app or on himalaya.com.